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Thread: VW 2.0 16V CIS Problems

  1. #1

    VW 2.0 16V CIS Problems

    i have an 88 git with a 2.0 16v swap converted to cis basic. the car will run good then will start bogging at high rpms and progressivly get worse to the point of not being able to run, then if i switch the injectors it will run fine for a limited time and start all over again. Anyone have any ideas?

  2. #2
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    Hopefully someone chimes in. I know BellCity is a CIS expert.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber's Avatar
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    my ears are burning....

    So let me get this straight...

    In scenario one, you mention that the car runs fine unless it's at high rpm?

    Then you change the injectors

    In scenario two, you mention that the car "runs fine - then starts all over again"

    So when you change your injectors, you can run your car at idle.... to high RPM's... and not have any bogging?

    I have a few questions.

    1. A) Was there any particular reason to change the management to CIS Basic?
    B) When the switch was made, did you change the CIS metering head and body as well.
    C) If you switched metering heads, did you make idle and CO adjustments with a long handle 3mm allen?

    (NOTE: Usually going from a CIS metering head with a Control Pressure Regulator to any other cis metering head, usually requires some kind of fuel pressure regulator .... do you have a picture so that I can see which one you have?)

    2. which type of injectors do you use, Granted CIS injectors are identical, do you have the ones with the tips? or ones without? or have you pulled them off?

    3. have you pulled your plugs to read them? Are they gapped properly with a good Copper plug?
    Perhaps running too rich at WOT is an issue.

    4. Are you using new viton injector seals for your injectors? It could also be that as the engine speed increases you may have a vacuum leak at your injectors at higher RPM's



    I had a similar problem a while back on my old 86. The car would run fine. but when I was at part throttle, it would bog and stutter. when I was past 4000rpm, it would settle out and run like it ate mexican for a week...

    I diagnosed this as such:

    1. Drive the car and as it starts getting boggy... pull over and shut off the car.
    2. remove the plugs from each cylinder. one by one. if you're running rich.. the plug should be BLACK...

    if this is the case, replace that injector with a spare. There's tiny springs in the injectors and they can break causing the pin in the injector to not seat... you may also want to try and soak the injectors in carb cleaner to see if there's any gook that can be cleaned out....



    ..... I see you've found my cis post....

    Quote Originally Posted by ministock9 View Post
    the only thing that ever seems to help is putting a new set of injectors in and its only a temporary fix, they seem to get pluged quickly, i have a fuel cell and and a high pressure pump, no accumulator, some say thats the problem but it ran for over a year and over a thousand laps like that so i dont know where to go next, any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated, o and i built a fuel pressure regulator and scraped the stock one, my car is wired to run with no computer just icm and vaccum advance box
    Are you positive the injectors are "plugged"? or do the symptoms just return? if they're indeed plugged... perhaps a new filtration system is in order?

    You mention a fuel cell and high pressure pump. The cell is dandy, but which pump are you using? what kind out output does it have? Both in GPM/ccpm or PSI? any measurement of fluid and pressure for this pump?

    I would figure that running a fuel pressure regulator could be an issue as well, as your fuel pressure is typically based on engine vacuum. try going back to a stock one.. perhaps you're overfuelling at high rpms
    Last edited by BellCityDubber; 11-16-2009 at 02:22 PM.

  4. #4
    i converted the car to cis basic because i wanted to run it with no computer, the reason for that is i race it on a circle track an in one year three computers went bad and i did not want that problem any more so the car is wired to run with no computer. when you say metering head do you mean the fuel distributributer? because yes i have changed that to a cis version with no plug, the fuel pressure regulator was build out of a fuel pressure guage and a ball valve, i built this becasue i didnt think that the stock fuel pressure guage would work with no computer, and i do not have the exact numbers for the fuel pump but the car ran perfect for two years with the fuel pump so i do not think that the pump is the problem. when i say clogged injectors i guess what i mean is very inconsistant spray, they seem to spray an even 360 degree mist when first installed and i have done the wide open throttle tests for the injectors and teh amounts they spray are all within specs in the book. but after the car starts to stumble, or i uess refuse to rev higher, if i check the injectors the spray is inconsistant and in some cases no spray at all. I have tried different fuel distributers but never one of a running car, always something that was on a shelf at a vw recyclers and i dont know if this could be a problem?

  5. #5
    and yes i use a 3mm allen to make adjustments

  6. #6

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ministock9 View Post
    I converted the car to cis basic because i wanted to run it with no computer, the reason for that is i race it on a circle track an in one year three computers went bad and i did not want that problem any more so the car is wired to run with no computer.

    When you say metering head do you mean the fuel distributributer? because yes i have changed that to a cis version with no plug, the fuel pressure regulator was build out of a fuel pressure guage and a ball valve, i built this becasue i didnt think that the stock fuel pressure guage would work with no computer, and i do not have the exact numbers for the fuel pump but the car ran perfect for two years with the fuel pump so i do not think that the pump is the problem.

    When i say clogged injectors i guess what i mean is very inconsistant spray, they seem to spray an even 360 degree mist when first installed and i have done the wide open throttle tests for the injectors and teh amounts they spray are all within specs in the book.

    After the car starts to stumble, or i uess refuse to rev higher, if i check the injectors the spray is inconsistant and in some cases no spray at all. I have tried different fuel distributers but never one of a running car, always something that was on a shelf at a vw recyclers and i dont know if this could be a problem?
    ^ there.. now we have paragraphs, separated the major points.... now we can all read it without a headache

    I'll start with the first...

    I dont think running circle track would destroy the ecu's.. jetronic (aka CIS) ecu's have practically less electronics than a wrist watch. I would think there's something else happening to destroy ecu's like that. perhaps bad grounds. If the ground on the valve cover isn't secure, NOTHING WORKS. But now that you're past that point and have made the swap. we can't really go and diagnose that system. But I would have suspected the computers wouldn't be fried on your CIS system, Digifant.. yes... digifant can backfeed it's grounds and destroy the ecu. but not on CIS.


    As for the second paragraph, we'll brake it down into three pieces.

    1. Type of CIS metering head and the number of ports on it

    Different versions of CIS had different number and configurations of fuel ports from the fuel dizzy (metering head) some were iron, some were aluminum, now, you mentioned that you have the 240T one on it?

    it kinda looks like this?

    (for reference, this is the VWMS fuel dizzy, volvo is similar)

    ports 3 and 6 should go to your control pressure regulator AKA Warm-up regulator... or

    this

    link for contingency's sake
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7u0gn/id4.html

    and another
    http://www.diagnostic-assistance.co.uk/mech_inj.htm

    The control pressure regulator has a 12v connection that connects to a bi-metal spring that will push the spring which opens the diaphragm allowing for proper fuel flow.

    2. Your fuel pressure regulator.
    http://www.diagnostic-assistance.co.uk/mech_inj.htm

    as you can see in the link above, there's also the section called system pressure. if you notice on the diagram for the fuel dizzy (metering head) there's the primary pressure regulator. This is connected from the line that comes from the Warm-up Regulator on the front of the block... AKA Control pressure regulator.

    If you could upload a picture of your engine bay so I can see what configuration you're running and how it's all plumbed together, I could see what your system pressures look like, or should be routed.

    HTH

    BCD

  8. #8
    okay i can upload pix tomorrow, do you think it would be worth getting an original wiring harness and hooking it all back up? I still have the cis E fuel dist

    I just want my car to be as reliable as possible. and would either system provide a power gain over the other?

    Thank you for the help, if i talk to anyone around here about my car they have no clue what im talking about and have never seen fuel injection like this haha

  9. #9
    Veteran Member BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber's Avatar
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    Yes, pics would be very helpful, as there were multiple different fuel dizzys... in theory they'll ALL work with each other, but it's best to have the dizzy match the system.

    it wouldn't hurt, but it depends on which system you want to hook up, and what drawbacks are there with each cis system. Typically basic is fine, but there are advantages to running others. IIRC basic has no wide open throttle switch, which is kinda nice to have a WOT-fuel enrichment circuit.

    they're BOTH reliable, and they BOTH can provide quite a substantial amount of fueling for up past 200 horse. I would try to diagnose and isolate the current problem before switching back. if all else fails, then you can return to stock and try another system.

    Well, I've dealt with a lot of older European stuff.. Volvo's, Audi's, VW's, and the occasional bimmer... they all share CIS / k-jetronic.

    When I get to see your metering head, your fuel pressure regulator, and your warm-up regulator I'll have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with.

    Where abouts are you located?

  10. #10
    i am located in Moultonborough, Nh its in the center of the state

    and i will take pix and post them in the am.

    In your oppinion what would be the best inline pump to run with a cis system?

  11. #11
    Veteran Member BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber is a splendid one to behold BellCityDubber's Avatar
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    Wow, New Hampshire eh.... neat... one of our members is currently on his way to Vermont at the moment.

    Yes, take some pics and post them when you can...

    Typically you don't hear many people changing to a different pump on a CIS system, most people who convert from CIS to any other type of fuel injection actually keep the CIS pump as it provides more flow and pressure than most other pumps.

    because CIS is a rare beast unto itself, I'd say stick with the stock pump.

    here's some operating flow & pressure spec's stolen from peter tong on CIS fuel pumps

    Bosch 0 580 254 957 (stock on A1 VWs - rabbits etc.)
    128l/hour @ 5 bar

    0 580 254 044
    200l/h @ 5bar (12 amps) some say 220l/h at 5bar
    172l/h @ 7 bar
    input thread size 14 x 1.5mm
    Output thread size 12 x 1.5mm.

    0 580 254 979 (1979/1982 Porsche 924 turbo pump)
    165l/h @ 5 bar

    Y 580 700 118
    100l/h @ 5 bar

    B 261 205 413 (bosch motorsports part - 8 bar version of the 044)
    >200l/h @ 8bar

    0 580 254 975 (1976-77 mercedes e-class, Ferrari 308GTBi)
    228l/h @ 5 bar

    0 580 254 984 (also known as GFP216 in the Bosch injection catalog)
    (stock primary pump for the 1978/1979 Porsche 928 4.5litre,
    also for 77-80 924 turbo, also on 911 SC/911 turbo 3.3, Volvo 240 turbo 2.1 litre)
    228l/h @ 5 bar
    (also see http://www.caspeed.com/boschpump/boschpump.html)

    0 580 254 040 (Audi 80 2.0 and 2.3l (Bosch ke-jetronic), 100, 200, Coupe, V8)
    235l/h @ 5 bar

    0 580 254 910
    200l/h @ 5 bar

    0 580 254 914
    220l/h @ 5 bar (14 volts)

    -= at the end of that post there was also this comment=-

    I researched the above after finding my old stock CIS pump was not keeping up with my Volvo 240t injection at full sensor plate lift. Pressure dropped to 60 psi - system pressure regulator is supposed to keep it at 75 (5 bar)...I'm trying the 957 pump to start. The Bosch pumps rule in the high pressure rang

    maybe.. because you swapped your dizzy to a volvo 240t, you need a better pump to retain system pressure..... hhmmmmm

    but 235 LPH @ 5 bar.... that's almost as much flow, but 3 times the pressure as a Walbro pump!!!!
    and imagine, the bosch motorsports pump??? 200lph @ 8 BAR?!?! wow

  12. #12
    this is the fuel dizzy im running
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  13. #13
    this is the pressure regulator, just a ball valve with a fuel pressure gauge, do you think i should revert back to the stock one??
    and if so does it just run off 12v power because i have no computer??
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  14. #14
    and there is a hose that attaches the ball valve and and fuel pressure guage even tho you cant see it because its covered up with chewed acorns.. I hate squirrles

  15. #15
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    Do CIS regulators have a vacuum signal, or does the fuel distributor handle the fueling entirely?
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    ^ Will...... The stock 16v CIS-Motronic and the CIS-E cars did have Vacuum based regulators off the fuel dizzy. Very early ones (IIRC) like CIS-Basic ran the warm up regulator.. but the fuel dizzy is capable of regulating fuel pressure, almost like a hydraulic fluid. if you're not hitting 75psi on that gauge... you'll notice weird running.

    my advice to ministock9....

    Replace the ball valve with stock. maybe preferably one from a CIS-E or Motronic system. They used a vac source. Otherwise you could try running a Warm-up regulator (aka Control Pressure regulator) they have a 12v IGN-ON signal for the bimetal spring, which is quite easy to rig up. but not completely necessary.

    Replace the under-car CIS pump with a pump that keeps the system pressure at 75psi - keep your eye on that gauge somehow while testing under WOT

    But I would figure that ball valve is limiting pressure.. and the volvo fuel dizzy needs a good 75psi... maybe your pump does function.. but no longer functions optimal; and isn't matched properly with the 240T dizzy.

  17. #17
    i have a couple more questions for you bell city, im running the injectors out of a motronic system, could this be a problem and if so what injectors should i use?

    and correct me if im wrong but in cis fuel system, its a sealed system correct? and if it is could it be a problem that my fuel cell is vented allowing outiside air in?

    thanks for your help in advance

  18. #18
    and also what would you do about the fuel pressure regulator, just a stocker? wheres the cheapest place to get one?

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